Looking Beyond What The Eyes Can See
A quote from my book Coincidences
We all live in the midst of this amazing mystery that is life. Sometimes we glimpse beyond the surface of this mystery into greater dimensions. The glimpses we gain, given form and cultural context by our interpretative brain, nevertheless they give us wonderful insights into the less physical places of life. They show us that life is a continuum, and love links us with others we may have thought were dead and gone.
A couple were worried about their young daughter, Carol, witnessing the deterioration of her grandmother, who was in her eighties and dying from the effects of heart disease, arthritis and old age. As the grandmother was being cared for in the home, it was easy for Carol to enter the bedroom to be with her grandmother. But the parents discouraged their daughter from spending too much time with her grandmother, as they thought it was an awful sight for a nine year old to see. Nevertheless, finding herself drawn to be with her grandmother, Carol went to her one day, but returned to her parents within a few minutes with a puzzled expression. ‘Mommy,’ she said. ‘There are two grandmothers. I saw two grannies in the room. First I talked to granny and then a lighted lady named Beth came and talked to me and granny. Then they left together.’
When the mother went with Carol into the grandmother’s room, they discovered that she had died. Carol’s simple and clear description of what she had seen changed her mother’s view of death. Especially so as Carol did not know that her great grandmother’s name was Beth.ii The false name of Carol is added by the author. iiii Paraphrased from Closer to The Light, by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.
The coincidental aspects of Carol’s vision were that Beth was the name of her great grandmother, and that Carol saw what she did at the moment of her grandmother’s death.
Critics of this might say that Carol had most likely heard the name Beth at some time, and that she hallucinated the vision of her two grandmothers leaving the room. The argument about having heard the name Beth is an insoluble one. Any critic can argue that a person’s memories are false, and there is no answer that will convince the critic otherwise. But the question of hallucinations in connection with such experiences, or even with drugs is no longer permissible. The suggestion is that we are prone to create almost any imagery we like, and that drugs create imagery completely unrelated to the psyche of the person. Years of research into unconscious functioning and imagery show that every fantasy is linked very directly to the psyche of the person, and that drugs do not bend this rule. Anybody who has explored the unconscious deeply will have personal experience of this. iiiiii See: Realms of the Human Unconscious, by Stanislav Grof. LSD Psychotherapy by W. V. Caldwell. Myself and I, by Constance Newland.
Kastenbaum, in exploring the viewpoint of critics, mentions the occurrence of negative and even terrifying imagery in connection with some near-death-experiences, as a possible indication of them being simply the brain’s method of fantasy in a high stress situation. In this theory the NDE is seen as a way of removing ones awareness from a stress event. The critical question asked is that if the NDE experience is a real perception of a world existing after death, then why do some people see this world full of demonic figures and as terrifying?
Dreams are more than dreams
Sometimes such questions seem naïve, especially when asked by said professors and doctors. I mean by this that it is common experience in everyday life that we observe a wide variety of responses to the world. Some people suffer high anxiety about even such common an experience as riding in, or driving, a car. For others the experience is pleasurable or stimulating. If we were to put these differences in response into imagery, the first would be hellish, and the other heavenly. Also, in any subjective experience, such as an NDE, or when the threshold between conscious and unconscious weakens, one meets imagery related to trauma that has not been dealt with. Stanislav Grof’s description of people meeting birth trauma is convincingly that of hell and demons.iviv See: Realms of the Human Unconscious, by Stanislav Grof. Meeting a near-death-experience is no different. Any traumas or fears you had not dealt with in life, would be met as the threshold broke down. These fears and traumas would be presented, just as dreams present them, as real external environment and events. In ancient occult teachings of the Western tradition, this was called meeting the Guardian of the Threshold. The guardian required you to meet the negative aspects of your past experience and actions before you could reach the positive wider life. Isn’t this exactly what people describe when they give details of a full life review as they are dying?
Fortunately, many so-called ‘hallucinations’ provide synchronistic information, and so cannot be discarded as simply fantasies aiding the person to disassociate themselves from pain and fear, or as a stress response. One of the most powerful of these is described in Closer to the Light by Dr. Morse. It was told to him by a physician who had witnessed the case.
A pregnant woman, Andrea, experienced difficulties during the delivery of her baby. vv Andrea is a false name given by the author. The placenta was separating prematurely, and the baby’s head was at an angle to make its delivery extremely difficult. When the child was eventually born it was discovered that he had a severe brain haemorrhage. His condition was so bad he had to remain in the intensive care unit of the small hospital. Andrea did not want him moved to a larger hospital as she wished to be near him at all times. The doctors caring for him did not press her to make the move as he was so ill, and no treatment was possible. Besides the brain damage the baby boy had severe cerebral palsy and seizures. An EEG showed the abnormality. Dr. Morse says that, ‘These are afflictions from which children simply don’t recover. If they survive infancy, they spend their lives severely retarded.’ Andrea was told the diagnosis but she stayed with her baby nearly 24 hours a day for months.
While Andrea was with her child late one night, she looked up and saw a ‘being of light’ enter the room. She describes the being as having the same form as a human, but not decidedly male or female. It glowed with a pale light as it spoke to her. ‘Your son will be all right’, it said, assuring her that her son would be normal. As the glowing being spoke to her Andrea felt as though love poured into her body in a marvellous way. It so deeply impressed Andrea that the next morning she told the attending medical team what had happened, and persuaded them to do another EEG to see if any change had actually occurred. When the brain-wave test was completed, it showed that Andrea’s deeply sick child was completely normal, having made a full recovery.vivi Paraphrased from Closer to The Light, by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.
Fantasy might be an image of the real
For some people, mention of beings of light probably evokes thoughts that some people just have to embellish life with fairy lights and Easter bunnies. Fortunately the fact of Andrea’s son’s complete recovery shows that a process of enormous change was at work, and not just wishful thinking. The real process of change that Andrea confronted late that night might have been depicted in quite a different way if Andrea had been born in a different culture. As a Hindu she may have seen it depicted as one of the many Gods, such as Shiva. As mentioned above, our process of creating meaning out of impressions received through our senses, or from our unconscious, is one that forms apparently real people and environments that seem to be exterior to us. If we get lost in whether there is actually a being of light who has blonde hair and blue eyes, we may completely miss the point. That point is that Andrea sensed a great change acting upon her son, and felt the power of that change. Her unconscious process of image formation pictured this as a being of light. Her experience, and the message she received, coincided with actual change in her son. That change, Andrea connected with the power of love.
I am not in any way trying to suggest there are not wonderful intelligences – beings – of a different order to our experience of life in the physical body. My comments are simply to show that if our critical mind prevents us from opening to the power of coincidence that links us with loving change because of the words ‘beings of light’, then there are other ways of looking at the experience. Ways, hopefully, that will let even the most rational among us, open to the mystery of life, however it might be explained.
Coincidences link us with that mystery and with the power that might somehow enter our life from that mystery. If people in the past, and today, kneel before that mystery, then perhaps their attitude arises from a sense of its wonder. If so, then I share that wonder and awe, and feel love when confronted by it, just as Andrea did. If there are beings, intelligences, who share that love, then I reach out to them in co-operation and sympathy.
When a synchronistic event such as Andrea’s occurs, we must remember that very often only certain people or animals can see the disembodied beings. When my disembodied awareness visited my mother in London, as my body slept in Germany, my mother was not aware of my presence. It was my dog who witnessed my visit. This is in no way different to our everyday experience, and is quite understandable by anyone. When we stand before a friend and think certain thoughts, the friend, even a lover, is usually totally unaware of what we are thinking except if our expression gives us away, or we tell them. In other words, our thoughts and feelings, despite being of extreme reality to us, are usually not discernible by anyone else, except through the physical senses. If we therefore think of the dead, or beings of light, or of an out of body personality, as a focus of thoughts and feelings in the ocean of sentience, then it is understandable why we cannot see them. That is, we cannot see them with our eyes or hear them with our ordinary ears. But this is no different from not being able to know the thoughts of the living. The dead have the same difficulty communicating with us, because they are beings of thought and feeling without a body. But if we listen to our intuition and unconscious impressions, we can ‘hear’ them.
There are more things in heaven and earth …
Time has been taken to explain this because I believe that if we are ill at ease with such things, we shut them out of our realm of possibility. That is a great diminishment of our opportunities. Who knows when we might need extraordinary healing, or wisdom, or help? It is akin to not believing in the telephone or taxis, and when we need to contact a friend or get somewhere quickly, we do not use the telephone or call a cab. As human beings we have the most amazing potential, as can be witnessed by some of the cases mentioned throughout these pages. We need not think of this potential in any particular form. But of course we might have a predisposition to think of it in ways such as beings of light, dead relatives, pure energy, the unconscious mind, or applied creativity. Your explanation only really matters to yourself. It does not alter the fact of the potential. But your explanation may either enhance you ability to reach out for more of the possibilities of your life, or it may be a means of shutting yourself off from them.
From the point of view of potential and energy, as well as disembodied intelligences, this next example of coincidence is interesting.
A man, Franklin, was lying ill in a hospital room.viivii Franklin is a false name given by the author. He was not taking any drugs to sedate his pain, so what happened was not drug induced. Franklin was a religious man, believed in life after death, and probably knew that he was dying. In fact he asked the nurse and others in the room to pray for him. There was a staircase in the room leading up to a second floor, and a drinking glass had been left on one of the steps. Suddenly Franklin looked at the stairs and cried out happily, ‘See, the angels are coming down the stairs. The glass has fallen and broken.’ Everyone in the room looked to the stairs where Franklin indicated. As they looked they saw the glass shatter in many pieces. It didn’t fall, but seemed to explode. But nobody else saw any angels. Almost immediately Franklin died with a happy and serene expression on his face. The expression remained long after his death.
The coincidental link between what Franklin said and the shattering of the glass is not unusual. Perhaps we call it a coincidence, or synchronistic, simply because we cannot define what the processes are that underlie it. Therefore it may seem strange, unusual, or even disturbing. Nevertheless, such events remind us that the factors of existence that lie outside of our understanding are often potently at work in a person’s life. They also point out that a coincidence is not limited to unplanned meetings, finding long lost objects, or events. They also occur in relationship between the living and the dead.
During the great period of psychic research, at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth, thousands of such unusual ‘coincidences’ were recorded or researched. Despite extraordinary results in this area, our general culture still remains sceptical of human potential and relationship with the transcendent reality inherent in life. Talking about this scepticism Robert Kastenbaum, the author of many books about the social and personal aspects of death and dying, asks an intriguing question.viiiviii See: Is There Life After Death, by Robert Kastenbaum, published by Rider. Death Society and Human Experience, by Robert Kastenbaum. The question relates to the present scientific attitudes to do with proof of a phenomenon. Most of today’s research is done in the form of statistical analysis. So what Kastenbaum asks is: Is one good example enough?
Coincidence or What?
At the end of 1907, Frederic Thompson feared for his sanity. Eighteen months previously, Thompson, a goldsmith, was compulsively urged to sketch and paint. He said the subjects he painted were not even his own choice. He told Professor James H. Hyslop, head of the American Society for Psychical Research, that Robert Swain Gifford, a dead landscape artist was dominating him. Thompson had briefly met Gifford, but had never seen any of his work. Thompson went to an exhibition of Gifford’s work in New York, only to discover that the artist had died just before his own compulsions started. While at the gallery, to his distress, Thompson heard a voice say to him, ‘You see what I have done. Can you not take up and finish my work?’ After that Thompson would often lose consciousness, waking to find he had completed a painting. Although Thompson’s artistic gifts fell short of Gifford’s, his skill increased over the months. He actually sold several paintings, and people remarked on their similarity to Gifford’s work.
He gives the example of walking along the river Thames two centuries ago. A commotion attracts your attention and you discover that a man has been pulled out of the Thames, drowned, and according to the information accepted at the time, dead. He is not breathing, and there is no heartbeat. But because you are the member of a new society that trains you to be prepared for just such a situation, you use what will later become known as artificial respiration. To the amazement, and perhaps horror or terror, of the onlookers, you bring the man back to life. He sits up and speaks.
If, in later weeks, other such bodies are pulled from the Thames, and after using the same technique they are not brought back to life, what are we to assume? Does it mean that a drowned person cannot be brought back to life? Was the one case of resuscitation meaningless? Kastenbaum’s question is – is one good example enough?
Kastenbaum gives another example. A group of fifty people gather to test the reality of levitation, and all with a will try to lift off the ground, jumping and flapping, puffing and blowing, and all fail except for uncle Charlie, who floats free and easy near the ceiling. Does this mean that levitation is impossible, because if it were not lots more people would be able to do it. Or is one good example enough?
Because I don’t understand this, does that mean it doesn’t exist?
What usually happens, as might have happened in the early cases of resuscitation, is that where there is no understanding of what is involved, trickery or the paranormal is suspected. So, are the synchronistic events surrounding unusual personal links with the living and dead trickery? Are they to do with the paranormal? Or is it that we simply do not know how they work yet? Perhaps the words coincidence and synchronistic are cover-ups for lack of knowledge.
Some of the most spectacular coincidental events in the area of links between living and dead, occurred around the investigations surrounding Mrs Leonora Piper of Boston, USA. William James, the great Harvard professor and psychologist, discovered the talents of Mrs Piper, and encouraged her to demonstrate them to other investigators. One of these was Richard Hodgson, described as a suspicious and critical lawyer. Hodgson had spent time exposing the trickery and fraud of several well known psychics of the period. One of his most public cases was his exposure of Madame Blavatsky, at the time the central figure of the Theosophical Society. Dr. Hodgson was also the research officer for the American Society for Psychical Research. Therefore when William James asked Hodgson to carry on the investigation James had started, Hodgson approached the project with the zeal of someone who was certain Mrs Piper was a fraud.
Mrs Piper was what used to be called a medium, a person who relays messages from the dead to the living, and from the living to the dead. So Hodgson presented himself to her, and she calmly told him many facts about himself, his family back in Australia, even information about dead relatives. All the information was correct. Trying another tack, Hodgson sent several anonymous people to Mrs Piper, none of whom she had ever met before, to see how she would respond. She gave them definite names of deceased relatives, along with facts and events from their lives. Astonished, Hodgson hired detectives to watch Mrs Piper to see from where she got her information. After careful surveillance they reported that she didn’t get her information from anyone. But Hodgson did not give up. While trying other approaches, a personality spoke via Mrs Piper claiming to be George Pellew, a writer Hodgson had known prior to Pellew’s death at 32. And this is where some of the most astonishing ‘coincidences’ occurred.
Firstly, Pellew, speaking through Mrs Piper, gave an enormous amount of specific information about his own previous life, and about his relationship with Hodgson. The disembodied Pellew even identified 30 people he had known during his life. They were told dates of events, and names of people they knew in common. Over a hundred people Pellew had not known during his life were introduced to the disembodied Pellew as if they were people he had met. Every one was rejected. Only those who were positively known were accepted as real contacts. This consistent demonstration of an actual personality, with its own unique memories, won Hodgson over to accepting the reality of survival after physical death.
Speaking with the dead
If Mrs Piper had been throwing dice, instead of speaking from wherever in herself she gained the information, this would be like throwing double sixes a hundred and thirty consecutive times. That is a coincidence beyond even the spectacular.
For many people, it doesn’t take the wonderful talent of a Leonora Piper to assure them their friends and family survive death. A sense of connection assures them, and coincidental events inform them, of communication with departed loved ones. Sometimes this happens in a chilling way, and sometimes in a heart warming manner. Alex Tanous, for instance, in his book Beyond Coincidence, tells how his psychic impressions led to a bizarre coincidence of the chilling variety. While visiting his niece at a girls’ school in Leysin, Switzerland, Tanous was told that the school building had once been used as a hospital. The fourth floor of the building was now kept empty, and the girls said it was supposed to be haunted. Deciding to explore this, Tanous went to the fourth floor and opened to his intuitive impressions. He felt a chill descend on him as he began to relive what he felt were events from the past. He saw a very wealthy old woman being dragged, struggling, to the balcony, and thrown off. The murderer was a member of her own family who wanted the woman dead to inherit the great wealth. As the murder was made to look like a suicide, the murderer was never arrested.
Tanous explained his impressions to the girls at the school, and also to a group of American teachers to whom he later lectured at a college in Leysin. A person in the audience told Tanous that the author A. E. Ellis had written about just such a situation in his book The Rack. Tanous did not think there was anything to explore regarding this coincidence. But some time later, after a press interview in which he mentioned his own impressions and the book, someone sent him a copy of The Rack. It was only then that Tanous saw that Ellis had exactly described the incident Tanous had relived, including the oppinion that it had been wrongly called suicide. Yet stranger, the story was set in Switzerland and the hospital was at Leysin. Lastly, The Rack is non-fiction! It seems the murdered woman wanted her story known.
My nephew went on holiday to Minehead. While he was there his Grandma died. But to avoid spoiling his holiday we didn’t tell him of her death. While he was away, his mother received what appeared to be a message from him on her telephone answering machine. Strangely, it did not seem to be his voice, but the message was ‘I don’t know how I’m going to live without her. I am missing her already.’ this deeply upset his mother, and when she investigated how it had come about, she discovered he had purchased a new mobile phone, and while playing with it had dialled her number, and the message was a voice on the TV or radio.
A more heart warming incident involves the great Italian writer Dante. Boccaccio, a contemporary of Dante, and the author of his biography, tells how Dante’s great work, Paradiso, appeared unfinished at his death. The last thirteen cantos of the work could not be found despite searching for several months. Friends and disciples of Dante eventually induced two sons of Dante, Jacopo and Piero to complete the work themselves that it might be published. But before attempting this Jacopo had an impressive dream. In it his father, Dante, came to him, ‘clothed in the purest white, and his face resplendent with an extraordinary light; and he, Jacopo, asked him if he lived, and Dante had replied: ‘Yes, but in the true life, not our life.’ Then Jacopo asked him if he had completed his work, and if so, where were the missing cantos. ‘To this Dante seemed to answer: “Yes, I finished it,” and then took him, Jacopo, by the hand and led him into that chamber in which he, Dante, had been accustomed to sleep when he lived in this life. Touching one of the walls, he said: “What you have sought for so much is here;” and at these words both Dante and sleep fled from Jacopo at once.’
Though it was late into the night, Jacopo went to the friend and disciple of Dante, Pier Giardino, and together they set off to the house Dante had lived in prior to his death. They woke the present owner and after explaining their mission, were led to the bedchamber in which Dante had slept. There, behind a mat hanging on the wall, a small window was discovered. In this window space were the cantos, now moulding after eight months in the damp place. In this way the Divine Comedy was completed.
Although some reported communications between the living and dead appear trivial, when a powerful dream coincides with reality, as Jacopo’s dream did, they often include important information. Mr. Batchelder was a Harvard graduate, whose grandfather had made a will that Batchelder had the courage to tell him was unfair to the family. The old man was well known for his stubbornness and hard-headedness, so Batchelder thought his comments would go unheeded. Eventually the grandfather died, and the will that was thought unfair was read and put in the hands of the executors. Soon afterwards however, Batchelder heard the old man’s voice during the night. With firm emphasis he said, ‘You were right about that first will. I made another. Don’t rest till you find it!’
The voice was so loud it woke Batchelder, and as soon as was practical he went to his grandfather’s house and started searching. There were drawers full of notes, manuscripts – he was a writer and editor of a magazine – bills and piles of letters. Eventually, after a long search, he found the new will amongst a heap of other papers. It was more recent than the one being executed, and had been done by a lawyer other than the usual family attorney. It was completely legal, and corrected the unfairness complained about. Until he heard the strong voice of his grandfather, Batchelder maintains that he had never thought of looking for another will. That the given message turned out to be factual, seemed to Batchelder like a positive communication from his surviving grandfather.
Such positive communications enter our life like rays of hope. Don Bradley gave a title to his book that has a strong message about such coincidences. It is called Angels in a Harsh World. Even if we have the inclination to believe, in the present western view of life, with its high stress, and pressure to be part of the system, it may be difficult to accept the sort of interventions mentioned above. Despite the extraordinary coincidences that occur daily to people around the world, giving evidence of life’s interconnectedness, and the continuance of life after death, virtually all official statements, news readings, statesmen and women, talk from a stance of intellectual cynicism. They speak as if non of the thousands of hours of research and uncountable number of human experiences ever happened. Robert Kastenbaum skilfully sums up this attitude when he writes:
Belief in survival is the case in point. What is this belief but a mental toy? A plaything that magically granted every wish when in our youthful ambition we were greedy for all sweets and too headstrong to acknowledge limits? The vision of the ‘happy ever after’ was all pleasure and comfort rolled into one vast security blanket. – our invincible sword to cut down all adversity and disappointments… this belief – in survival – had its day in the childhood of the human race, a mental and cultural device intended to soften the actual experience of pain, loss and danger.
Do we need science to assure us we are alive?
When my son Léon was about seven, he went from the UK to America with his mother and sister, to visit an auntie living there. While there his grandfather died suddenly without warning. I did not pass the news of this on to my wife because I thought she would feel it necessary to cut her visit short. On the day his grandfather died, Léon, for what appeared to his mother to be no good reason, became suddenly depressed and cried for hours. His unhappiness, he said, was because everything was dying, even the sun.
As he goes on to say later in looking at this criticism, our present scientific theories have no way of explaining the facts of human experience, or of some aspects of research. Unfortunately, when prevailing theory cannot explain facts, facts are swept aside. Facts of experience are then explained as childish or wish fulfilling theories. But do we need a scientific theory to assure us of what our heart tells us? Do we need proof of what we feel when we come alive, or experience a sense of wonder at the sight of a child or nature? Do we need someone else to make us confident of what brings tears of joy to our eyes?
Whether fact or theory, this last wonderful incident is a fitting end to this chapter on coincidence as a link between people, living or dead.
During 1986, David Young and his family attacked an elementary school in Cokeville, Wyoming. They carried a mass of weapons and explosives into the school and held 156 children hostage, threatening to kill them. Later, Young exploded the bomb, thereby destroying the whole school. Yet none of the children were hurt. Many of the youngsters were able to tell people later, how this miracle of escape happened. They said people who were shining with a light from within them told them how to safely escape from the school. One of the young girls explained in detail what happened. ixix See: http://www.netstoreusa.com/tubooks/155/1555171443.shtml for more information about the bombing in Cokeville. When Angels Intervene To Save The Children; The Cokeville, Wyoming Bombing Incident. By: Wixom, Hartt. Published by CFI Cedar Fort. ISBN: 1555171443. Also reported in Closer to the Light by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.
They [the shining people] were standing there above us. There was a mother and a father and a lady holding a tiny baby and a little girl with long hair. There was a family of people. The woman told us that a bomb was going off soon and to listen to our brother. She said to be sure we did what he told us. They were dressed in white, bright like light bulbs, but brighter around the face. The woman made me feel good. I knew she loved me.
The girl’s brother described it slightly differently:
‘I didn’t see anything. I just heard a voice tell me to find my little sisters and take them over by the window, and keep them there. They were playing with their friends, and they did not want to move. I took them to the window and helped them through.’
And lastly, a six year old said, ‘A lady told me that a bomb was going to go off soon. She said to go over by the window and hurry out.
Sometimes it takes extraordinary crisis to part the clouds that hide the wonder in which we live. At other times all it needs is a humble heart, or a quietness that comes from realising the futility of our own thoughts in their attempt to understand Life.
________________________
i The false name of Carol is added by the author.
ii Paraphrased from Closer to The Light, by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.
iii See: Realms of the Human Unconscious, by Stanislav Grof. LSD Psychotherapy by W. V. Caldwell. Myself and I, by Constance Newland.
iv See: Realms of the Human Unconscious, by Stanislav Grof.
v Andrea is a false name given by the author.
vi Paraphrased from Closer to The Light, by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.
vii Franklin is a false name given by the author.
viii See: Is There Life After Death, by Robert Kastenbaum, published by Rider. Death Society and Human Experience, by Robert Kastenbaum.
ix See: http://www.netstoreusa.com/tubooks/155/1555171443.shtml for more information about the bombing in Cokeville. When Angels Intervene To Save The Children; The Cokeville, Wyoming Bombing Incident. By: Wixom, Hartt. Published by CFI Cedar Fort. ISBN: 1555171443. Also reported in Closer to the Light by Melvin Morse M.D., with Paul Perry. Published by Ivy Books, USA. ISBN: 0-8041- 0832-3.